tv Charlie Rose WHUT August 4, 2011 11:00pm-12:00am EDT
>> rose: welcome to our programf picture of a starving child from somalia on the front page of the "new york times." we talk about that tonight with abc news' david muir and valerie amos from the united nations. >> i asked this one mother with her four children, sitting in the blazing sun, waiting to get in through the one gate to get the first chance at a bag of flour, or some of those meals. i asked the family when the last time they ate, and they said five days. five days they hadn't had anything to eat. they were now waiting in this long line, hours, just t try to get in to get access to some of at's being given out. >> we're talking about 8 people in the south and the center. none of us wanted t see these
kinds pictures, thisind of famine ever again in our world. we have to raise over a billion more dollars to try to get help and support to people who are in abtesolu desperaso need.pe that's what we're trying to do. >> rose: we continue thiseveninf hosni mubarak the former president of egypt in cairo with two people in the courtroom. "the new york times"' anthony shadid and "the washgton post's" leila fadel. >> what was interesting to me, the humbling of power, the aura around the former president of mubarak became mundane to the millions of people watching it, especially in egypt. he was man, personally that. >> the main charge is the killing of protesters, nearly 900 people were killed during those 18 days, as well as
corruption charges in t cases of four villas and gas pipe -- and a gas pipeline, underselling, wasting public funds. so the charges, a lot of human rights activists and academics and observers are worried that there isn't a real process here to keep him accountable for 30 years of torture. >> rose: we turn now to the raia bin laden. nicholas schmidle tells us how they did it. >> the president doesn't give them the go-ahead until the friday before the operation took place. this previous night there was a meeting at the white house until around 7:00 p.m., everyone giving their various takes on what they should or shouldn't do. the president wanted to sleep on it. the next morning, he brought the national security advisor and the deputy nationalecury
advisor to the map room of the white house and told them he opted for the raid. >> we conclude this evening with joby warrick, who's itten a fascinating book about one of the darkest days in the cia's history. >> peeling back the layers as a reporter it became more and more fascinating about the facts. this was a double agent who had the trust of the agency, sent to another country to infiltrate al-qaeda, but instead put his bomb on a chest and walked into a cia base and blew himself up. >> famine in somalia, hoss hosni mubarak, and the dark day in cia when they lost seven agents in one day wh we continue.
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>> rose: the horn of africasufft in 60 years. more than 12 million people have been affected. somalia faces the worst food emergency. 3.7 million people, or half the population, is facing starvation. its in the souther part, controlled by the sh by the she. joining me valerie amos and david muir. he just returned from the region this week. here's a look at some of his reporting. >> a pediatric surgeon from springville, illinois, now helping here. she shows us the baby wrapped in a special heating blanket, even in the stifling desert, keeping her tiny body going. another key here, a simple suppment made of peanuts and milk powder, saving lives one mini meal at a time. and there was this baby.
while we could see only the outline of her fragile body, the hospital director saw something else. she was sitting up for the first time, and she's gained a whole pound. >> she's only been here two days. >> this is the third day. >> you can say she's going to be okay? >> yes. >> the refugees spilling into the desert, and the doctors who come to them. >> this is an ambulance. >> when he takes us inside, a crush of families, mothers putting their children in a sort of hanging bucket to weigh them. they're noticing something here, that the hunger goes well beyond babies and toddlers. it's the olr children, too. >> when you see malnutrition in 5-year-olds, 6-yr-olds, 7-year-os, that's sign of how deep the famine is, right? >> yes. how deep the problem is.
it's starvation. >> if they can get them the nutrients they need, you'll soon see what we did outside. you can hear the gunfire breaking just beyond this wall here. they've asked us not to turn the corner. they're exchanging fire as they try to move the extremists to the outskirts of the city. we were on a convoy meant to protect the aid route in the city when we witnessed the fire food. the u.n. says somalia faces the worst food emergency in the world, but it's clear they face something else, a political vacuum, a weak government, and an al-qaeda-linked group determined to gain more power here. >> we're trying to make it impossible. >> to try to block the aid? >> yeah, trying to block the aid. >> as we pulled away, our convoy hit with gunfire, too. no one was hurt. we just took a direct hit on this convoy, and you're convinced that was al-shabaab? >> a short distance away, a reminder of the stakes here, the
hungry children living in erflowing refugee camps and hearing gun battles in the hill. >> david and valerie are here. i was caught with the "new york times" photograph on augt 2nd, many of you who see "the times" may have seen that photograph. i'm sure you've seen these kinds of phographs and these stories. the question is, what's going to happen? >> you can't get it out of your mind, when you see something else like this, particularly over the last week and a half. it's only going get worse, charlie. one of the numbers that came out just today, 29,000 somalia children under the age of 5 lost in the la tee months -- >> last month. >> the last month in fact. they've expanded the famine zone to three more regions in southern somalia. the warning shots have been fired for the world to help. the question is ether they will, because they haven't had nearly as much aid or help from the global community as they'd
like. >> why not? >> part of it, obviouslyhe complications you saw there when we were in mogadishu. alhabaab has moved into mogadishu, spread out across the city, and made it difficult for humanitarian groups around the world to get the aid in. so many people have written to me online, on twitter, why in earth would they want to keep the food from the people? part of the reason is, they control so much of the south. not only have they gone to the refugee camps in kenya, but intg full well the danger of mogadishu. >>etter than where they are. >> they think it's the only hope for food. al-shabaab is nervous about it, because if they move to the south al-shabaab loses its group. >> rose: it's people as a weapo.
>> it's absolutely scandalous. we're talking about the children, butadults too. we're talking about 2.8 million people in the uth and the center, which are the al-shabaab areas, and none of us wanted to see these kinds of pictures, this kind of famine ever again in our world. we have to raise over a billion dollars to try to get help and support to people who are in absolutely desrate need. that what we're trying to do. >> rose: and will you be able t? >> well, i have to be hopeful and positive about it, because it's my job with the secretary-general and my colleagues to try to raise that money. we need to health department organizations that -- help the organizations that are hp to able to erate in that territory. there are a few of them. we have to help with the resources to really ramp up their efforts. we also have to keep trying to negotiate to get other organizations able to go in, but we've got to health department people of kenya and ethpia,
too, and the somalia refugees. >> rose: you were recently inso? >> practical in the middle of nowhere, mothers w walked up to five hours to bring children who could make it to a clinic to get some healthcare, also to get some food. the camps in kenya are now overflowing. the biggest refugee camp in the world has four times more people it was bui to accommodate. we're building more camps, but this cannot be the answer. we have to deal the here and now. we will accept that. but we also have to help countries to plan for the longer-term, to really people whose absolute way of life is under threat. the droughts are now happening every two years rather than every ten. ways of sustaining the environment are receding rapidly. we've got rapid population
growth. it's a very complex situation we're dealing with. >> valerie talks about the camps overflowing. to put the numbers in perspecte, more than 400,000 refugees now. that's the size of minneapolis or a cincinnati now living in those camps. while we were there, you could see the mothers and all of their belongings that they could carry on their heads and on their waists, and their children hanging from their waists, too, emerging from the desert and waiting line. i asked this one mother with her four children, sitting in the blazing sun, waiting to get in through the one gate to get the first chance at a bag of flour, or a meal, i asked the fily when the last time was they ate, and they said five days. five days they hadn't had anything to eat, and they were waiting in a long to get something being handed out. >> rose: beyond the issues ofale world reacting to this? is that part of the okay?
>problem?>> i have to give dianr and our boss, ben sherwood, a lot of credit for pushing this story, allowing me to go and report for the broadcast. on monday, the entire broadcast was the debt, with the compensation of my peace out -- with the exception of my piece out of mogadishu. it does make a difference, if you give it the attention it needs. there are a number of organizations doing wonderful, wonderful things, but doctors without borders obviously one of them. they told us that after our first rert, that the giving almost tripled in one evening more than 00,000 from viewers of just one evening broadcast. if you think about it this way, thoseiny meal supplements, they're an entire meal, basicallpeanut butter and milk powder, costs $1 a day for two meals for a child. you saw the little girl, nothing
but skin and bones. i thought, thinks poor chd going to make it? the doctor said, she's sitting up. >> rose: i saw that part of the. >> charlie, this whole point about media attention, how we keep the pressure up is reay important, because from the end of last year we were saying there is going to be a famine in the horn of africa. from november last year, we started to try to raise -- >> rose: saying to the world,doe prepared. >> we got less than half of what we needed. we did get some. we were able to preprocession some stocks -- preposition some stocks, what we've been using in kenya up until now. people need to understand, and governments need to understand, that food is about a pipeline. money going in now is gng y stocks which will take some time to be delivered. there are lots of good things that have happened in terms of planning, governments like kenya and ethiopia have themselves been putting inplace safety net programs, but it's not nearly enough when you're talking about
these kinds of numbers, when you're talking about 12 million people across four countries. and when you're talking about the depth of the cris in somalia. >> rose: and the fear always isl not be received by the right people. >> i know people are really worried about that, and particularly worried about that in somalia. we have made every effort to make sure that the money and the food and the supplies go to the people who need it. i can't guarantee that 100% of it will do that. i don't think anybody could. in somalia, we're dealing with a conflict situation. but the majority of it will. and people need to be assured about that. >> rose: can anybody speak toal? >> secretary of state hillary clinton just this afternoosaid from washington, she told al-shabaab, in the best way that she could, that we need unfettered access to the south and to mogadishu. she also said that sanctions aside, the sanctions the u.s.
has on al-shabaab, that the u.s. is not going to hold anyone responsible if they try to get aid in. i mean, we were there in mogadishu. 14 tons of food landed on the tarmac, the world food program. when you navigate thetreets, and we were in an armore convoy, you have to wonder how they'll get the food through. we were at a refugee camp, and we wouldn't le us ta to the families without armor on. >> even with that level of insecurity, we havgot ornizations like doctors outhborders, lik the international -- >> rose: prepared to dosomethin? >> like unicef working now in south and central somalia, even with that level of insecurity. we really need to support them. on your other point, can anybody talk to al-shabaab? there's conversaons going on at all kinds of different levels. obviously i don't want to say too much more about that, but some of it has resulted in more aid being able to get through.
we have to keep trying to do more of that, because without that it's going to get even more closed off and more people will die. >> rose: thank you for coming.e. >> thank you. >> rose: david, well done.thank. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: back in a moment.stay . >> rose: six months ago the abwy downfall of egypt's longtime leader hosni mubarak. he's been charged in connection with the killings of protesters earliethis february. yesterday he uttered two sentences and denied the charges. the trial was carried live around the arab world and watched by millions. the region's leaders3w are also paying close attention on the same day mubarak's trial started, the government escalated its assault. acrding to the united nations
more than 1500 people have been cracked down around the country. joining me now, two reporters from cairo. anthony shadid of the "new york times," leila fadel of the "new york post." anthony, recap for me, for you who's en so much of the arab world, what it was like yesterday to see this man in this cage presented with these charges. >> well, you know, charlie, i was first based here as a journalist back in the mid-1990s. not even that time not even taxi drivers would talk about president mubarak. there was a aura and prestige of power around him. watching the trial, there was a humbling of power. in a way, the aura around former president mubarak became mundane to the millions of people watching it,specially in egypt, he was a man. he was merely that. i think that was the most
remarkable transformation. a lot of -- in a lot of ways i think the reverbations of those remarkable protests back in january and february came fa-to-face with a person that they had -- you know, that they toppled. mr. mubarak was sitting in the courtroom. he said two lin. and that was all he said to the judge. his s, you know, frequently leaned over to him to whisper into his ear, because he was rd of hearing. he seemed very vulnerable, very frail, and very human. >>ose: leila, what have theycha? >> the main charge is the ordering of killing of protesters. nearly 900 people were killed during those 18 days, as well as corruption charges in the cases of four villas a a gas pipeline, underselling, wasting public funds. so the charges, a lot of human rights activists, academics and observers are worried there isn't a process here to keep him
colorado 30 years of excesses and abuses. instead it's focusing on 18 days and a smattering of corruption charges. >> rose: do the military leadery had no choice but toaéas i thin, they served up one of their own. >> that's right. i think in this case the mar pressure became too great, and they had to sacrifice one of their own. he's a decorated war row during the world with israel. now he's in a prosecution cage. you can see remnants of the way the old governmentorked. there re only four people related to the people killed in protest. they had been invited to the trial, yet none of them were there. the seat-fiers inside the courtroom were police conscripts dressed in civilian clothe
canning. they made it's a controlled atmosphere so there wouldn't be outbursts against the former p. he was powerless and helpless, but at the same time the remnants of the old government were still protecting him. in video afterwards, when they were pulling him out of the cage, saw thatome of these policemen were saluting the old security chief. so by no means is what they were in the past yet in the past, although, of course, you've never seen a situation like this where mubarak, who once was revered, now in a hospital bed, helpless, and newspaper headlines today talking about the pharaoh that has fallen. >> what's the condition of his health? >> well, i was in the courtroom that day, and also, of course, in the video. i think a lot of people expected him to be much more sickly. it had been suggested he has cancer, in and out of comas, but he was alert, awake, waving his fier in a very mubarak-esque
way when he declared that he was innocent. it was clear that he knew what was going on. his sons also were very protective of him, trying to block the view of him from the caras and from the people. and, you know, a lot of the people watching the trial pointed out that he had time to dye his hair black, you know, 83 years old. >> rose: what's the relationshid the people who were in the streets? >> the military, when it took power from mr. mubarak back in february, was in some ways seen as a savior, at least a defender of the revolution. since that time the military has tried very insistently to portray itself as a defender of the revolution. right now its decision-making is seen as opaque, and for a lot of people seen as incompetent to a large degree. the military wants to preserve
its very venerable power in this country,ut it's seen as a conservative force, a force not willing to go as far as liberal and secular forces want the country to go. you see the hints of alliances with conservatives join with the military under this rub rubic of stability. in some ways the alliances that have erged between it and other fors in the country, the arrangements that it makes for the elections, and perhaps principles for a constitution, will go a long w inefining how far this revolution actually goes. >> rose: what's the reason forwt happens on august 15th? why the interim period? >> well, at this point the defense attorneys and the lawyers that are advocating for the families of killed protesters made requests to the
judges. it was clear from the defense strategy that they plan to make this a protracted and painful trial. they plan toall 1631 witnesses. they also made it clear that they will not spare the military. they want to call the former defense minister, and now the head of the country, essentially, the head of the supreme armed -- the supreme council of the military to the stand. and so they're making it clear that if mubarak is going to go on trailer, then the military, part of his government, will also go on trial. so now the judges will be reviewing these requests, and on august 15th will when back. >> rose: all right.when is the ? >> in november, over three successive stages beginning in november. it could be delayed again. certain segments in the country would actually like t see it delayed. you see a very opaque landscape in egypt right now. liberal left and secular forces
divided. i think you see the best organization among islamists, and also a ruling party that in some ways represents a shadow station, even though it was disbanded. this is going do be a difficult time as we go forward. as i said, it's still opaque. when you had the charity of than february -- >> rose: what do you think will? >> it's shocking what's going in hama right now, on the very day that mr. mubarak was put on trial, president assad escalated his campaign against a city that no one thought he would be willing to take by force. hama was the scene in 1982 of one of the most violent episodes
in the modern middle et, when the president's father killed 20,000, perhaps more people there. his son is trying to retake a city in some ways liberated. the security forces had withdrawn from hama since june. there was a notion of freedom inside that city. there was a leadership to take the place of the government. now secondhand reports of bloodshed. >> rose: does the outside worlde fighting? >> i don't really think they do, to be honest. i think the international community has not gone as far as the protesters and dissidents would want them to go. of course the united states ande
called for the president to step done. this is a government, a government run by a family largely, that's going to hol on to power at all can $costs. i interviewed a few months ago the cousin of president assad. he said, we're not going to get on a boat and sail away. we're going to fight till the end. we're seeing the signs of it. sadly we could see the violence effect late dramatically. >> re: leila, while we'relookint libya? where is that today? >> i think in libya, you're seeing signs of the rebels themselves infighting. even before qaddafi steps down, while the stalemate is going on, you've had the assassination of the former minister of the interior, currently the head of the rebels armed forces assassinated, and nowthere's infighting between their own forces before qaddafi even leaves. it's very much in a state of war very much still about the vengeance, who iswho, and who is loyal to who in libya.
generally in the region, i think en you look at egypt, it's a very different story than when you look at libya or syria. here you have a dictator where billions of dollars of aid come here, and the military decided not to support their boss and stepped away from him. because of that he left power. yes, it was a populist movement that pushed him out, but ultimately if the military didn't take sides with the protesters they wouldn't have left. if the west didn't have so much influence, iwould have been a different picture. in libya or syria, denouncing means nothing because they weren't allies in the first place. >> rose: does it look like apro? >> yes. it's been going on a long time. it became quite clear quite quickly this wasn't going to be unarmed protesters forever, that
they had bled so much, they were taking up arms to fight the fight. and that fight i continuing to this point, and even with airstrikes there's no sign that he has any intention of leaving >> rose: what do you makof ther" today that qaddafi's son is seeking rebel allies? he said in an hour-long interview that he was reversing course to seek an alliance with -- >> it sounds like pitc petulance than excesses an anything else. this is a beleaguered government, trying to seek leverage, intimidation or fears. i think the islamists so far in libya, they want to be part of the opposition. there's been no talk about tryingo seize control of the
state. i mean, let's be frank, it's not a cohesive opposition. >> rose: thank you both.i know . so i thank you very much for coming in and making your way to the cairo studio, leila. anthony, good see you through skype. >> likewise, charlie. >> rose: take care. rowing on p , osama bin laden was killed by snavyoueals called team six. l takna atoth tedyohe t that led to thetuap c.re his week's "new york" calledo. "getting bin laden: what happened that night in abbottabad." i'm pleased to have nicholas schmidle here. >> thanks for having me, chlie. >> rose: where did this beganfo? >> it began 2 1/2 weeks after
the operation itself. i had lunch with someone in washington, and over the course of that lunch realized that he was talking to an individual who had fairly -- extremely unique access and insight into what happened that night. over the course of the next two months, was able to build the story from there, going back to administration sources, the intelligence community, and it ended up where it did. >> rose: i'm fascinated by howte courier, how that unraveled. tell me. >> well, they had been interested in this courier for several years. and in late smer of 2010, october -- or august of 2010, a satellite flying over abbottabad.
it was a white suv with a white rhino on the wheel cover of the spare tire on the back, but they saw this car sitting there in the compound and sort of built their suspicion and interest in this house from there. rose: they had a place, then?t. >> rose: so what did they do?hot one sighting? >> well, they kept a very close eye on the house. mostly from the air, from what i understand. mostly from satellite image they noticed they were burning fires, because they saw smoke coming up. they saw anndividual walking, able to guess his height by the shadows and whatnot. frankly, it was -- it was a very uncertain thing up until the night of the -- the late night of may 1st or early morning of may 2nd. the president told the navy seals it was a 50/50 call. the cia put their confidence
that bin laden was in the house at 60% to 80%. >> rose: and what was thepresids first briefing? >> well, the president's reaction at the first briefing was one of serious intest. he had told cia director leon panetta that essentially he wanted them to flesh out a concrete plan for making sure that they expended every effort to find bin laden. so the president was interested. his advisors were interested. they asked panetta to go back and continue to see what he could -- what more evidence they could dig up that bin laden was actually in that house. >> rose: as may 1stapproached, t was getting briefings, how was the evidence being -- how was it changing? how was the information changing? >> well, it was change with each of these briefs, the courses of action that the military officials were suggesting to the president. initially, in mid-march, up
until mid-march, each suggested course of action, whether it would be an airstrike, whether it -- and a variety of options along the airstrike range, whether it be a commando style raid that we saw, they came with a rider sort of with pakistani corporation or without pakistani corporation. it was in mid-march that the president decided this was no way he was going to take the risk of informing the paktanis in advance, so that narrod down the options by half. in late march, the notion of bombing the house with b2 bombers was ultimately dismissed when it was revealed it would take 32 smart bombs to penetrate down io the tunnels if there were tunnels. the notion of flattening a pakistani city was not something that he wanted be a part of. >> rose: take me to the mission. as the clock came down, what happened in the situation room as the president was making his decision? what arguments had he heard about what to do, how did the
division break out between defense, cia, and the closest advisors of the president? >> right. so there were sort of three camps, if you will. there was the camp that advocated the raid. there was the camp advocating a no boots onhe ground option or essentially the airstrikes. then there was the camp that said we should wait until we have a greater amount of confidence that bin laden is actually in the house. those who were favoring -- i mean, they were asked by the president to take a position. it wasn't like they were really rallying to this necessarily, but vice-chairman of the joint chiefs, general cartwright, and the secretary of defense, bob gates, were both favoring the airstrike option. secretary gates had a very unique viewpoint on this, or sort of approach to this, because he had been in the situation room in 1980 during the planning of operation eagle claw, the debacle, the failed mission to try to free the u.s. hostages in iran in which eight american servicemen were killed. so he was -- he kept harking
back to, this reminding people that that sounded like a good idea, too, he kept saying. those who advocated perhaps a more -- sort of a a watch and wait approach included the head of the national counterterrorism center. actually the president was in favor of the raid. his advisors were in favor of the raid. >> rose: and where was secretar? >> strongly in favor of the raid, i understand. >> rose: john brennan was favor? >> exactly. >> rose: what were the ordersgi? >> the orders -- this is actually -- this is a great question. from the standpoint of those who were involved in the raid, this was a kill mission. those other folks who i spoke to over the course of the past couple months suggested that this was a capture or kill mission, but from those most intimately involved with -- intimately involved around the team, there was no question they
did not want detainees as one of them said to me. >> rose: but was part of themisg a body with them after the kill? >> i don't know specificay whether that was part or not. >> rose: because that's centralt wanted to establish, that they had in factille or captured osama bin laden, evidence of that. >> you know, it's funny, because if there hadn't -- if the helicopter crash had not kid, having that body may have actually been more useful in the end. we may now see those pictures, have seen those pictures, for instance, with the fact that that helicopter tail was laying inhe middle of the courtyard the next morning, there's no question the sls had been there, no queion what had happened. >> rose: so what do they sabout, their experience? how do they remember it? >> well, s the folks that i spoke to -- i should be clear about this -- the folks i spoke to were intimately involved
along various stages the course of the operation. the 23 seals on the ground in abbottabad that evening, i did not have the chance to speak to. their identities arelassified. everything i'm getting, sort of about what they were thinking is secondhand. >> rose: right, i understand.i y jumped out at me, over the course of the past couple of months, is how somewhat routine of an operation this was. >> rose: yes.these guys do thisn and night out. this was not -- unlike, say, operation eagle claw in 1980, the iranian mission we just referenced, which was brought together -- you know, when those guys were brought together for one mission, they sort of got together and planned and went for it. these guys do this every single time. there were 12 other nighttime raids that same evening in afghanistan. th particular seal team, i mean they were involved in the sniper shooting of the three somali pirates in ril of 2009. these guys are amazing. for them there was nothing exceptional to the evening.
the strategic value of the target, of course, was far, far greater than anything they'd gone for in the past ten years, but the difficulty of the operation was not -- was not overly difficult. >> rose: and a gat story.thank . >> thanks for having me on, wne" yorker" magazine,veorr coyr raid on bin laden. nicholas schmidle talks to the people who planned the mission to find out exactly what happened that night in abbottabad. >> rose: joby warrick is here.ht "washington post" while working for raleigh, north carolina's, "the observer" he won a pulitzer. he's written a book about the bombing in afghanistan tha killed seven of the agency's employees. it was one of the deadliest attacks in the c's recent history. i'm pleased to have joby warrick
at this table for the first time. welcome. >> it's a pleasure. >> rose: welcome to a fellownor. >> absolutely. >> rose: when you got interestee this is a book? >> i worked on this from the very first day, when the incident happened in 2009. if you remember that week, a lot of u were back at work because of the attempted bombing of the airliner over detroit, t underwear bomber. it was a trible week for the country. right in the middle of, this you have incredible news out of afghanistan that an attack happened at a cia base with nine people killed, seven americans. this never happens in the cia's world. it's been 25 years since they had an incident this horrific. and just peeling back the lays as a reporter, it became more and more fascinating to me as i began to learn about the facts. this was a double agent, who had the trust of the agency, who had been sent from another country to infiltrate al-qaeda, but instead had put a bomb on his chest and walked into a cia base and blew himself up. >> rose: take us through thestod
this, and how he gained access to these cia employees and why they allowed him to be so close. >> yeah. there's so many parts to this, it's -it is why really a book treatment became necessary to me. >> rose: right.here's someone we was an angry young man, is the bess way to describe him. he was a secret blog he was doing under an assumed name -- >> rose: he was a jordanian?jora doctor. had two children and a wife living very modest live in iman, and is was something he did completely secretly on the side, writing provocative pro-al-qaeda blogs, and thousands of people were tuning in. >> rose: why was he writing?a ln felt, toward israel in particular, toward the west in general, in part because of his own upbringg. a palestinian family, his born was born in israel, his father sent in exile, and he grew up
his entire life looking over the border looking at what was his homeland, and his day was dealing palestinian children. he was very driven, and he wanted to do intereing it. the jordanian intelligence agencies figured out who he was, they arrested him, and that started this chain of events. >> rose: they arrested him andw? >> put him in prison for three days, essentially their interrogation center. he collapsed pretty quickly, because he's not a trained operative. he's someone that after a few days, a little sleep deprivation, said, sure, i'll tell you whatever you want to know. he began to give names, information about al-qaeda's jihadist internet network, and then began to suggest that he could be an informant for them. he suggested this idea, that he could go to pakistan, which seemedighly you kno improbable,t
i'm willing to go to help you out. the jordanians thought it was worth a try. they brought in the yay. cia. next thing you know he's on his way to pakistan. his mental journey is the most difficult to nailown. people in the cia have flipped back and forth. i came to the cbs from my reporting that he intended to do something from the very beginning. certainly not being a suicide bomber, but something to strike back at these people who oppressed him, arrested him, humiliated this way. >> rose: he went to pakistan.wh? >> he ends up disappearing in the wilds of the tribal area, this -- you know, what we call the fatah, the federal rated tribal area, and no one hears from him for several months. he came out of the blue and communicat with his handler, a jordanian, saying i managed to make contact with some very important people. so he started to peel off bits of information about people he
was meeting, letting them know with drone strikes, what was working, who was getting killed. so this flow of information starting coming out of him that was quite impressive. that was just the start, because it became ev more impressive, singularly impressive the more it went on. >> rose: what happened to himwh? >> we know now because of his own accounts, he left writings, videotapes and other things, such as this, he ended up being a guest of one of the major taban officials, the leader of the pakistani taliban. he wastaying at his house, eating food with the man, being groomed for something. no one knew what, but he trusted m for some reason, and they began to colctively make plans to use him in a sting. their hope was to get jordanian inteigence officers into pakistan so they could kidnap them, put them on trialkill them, but it ended u-- the ultimate plan was much more complicated than that. >> rose: a bigger target.exactl.
>> rose: how much access did he? >> in the beginning, people in al-qaeda didn't trust hip, they wouldn't even be in the same room with him because they thought he was a spy. it's clear his own life was in danger. he could have been killed by al-qaeda for being a suspected spy. it happens all the time. over time as he began to prove his cdentials to them, they began to concoct this idea of the ultimate mission against al-qaeda. it was very elaborate and complex, the kind of thing that we would want to do to an adversary ourselves. slowly and patiently they put together this trapped that they lured the cia into. >> rose: take me through that,b. he first has to convince the jordanians. >> exactly. >> rose: they represent him tot. they are his handlers as far as the cia isoncerned. >> yes. >> rose: the cia bought intowha. >> exactly. >> rose: that's e weaknesshere. >> the americans never talked to
him directly. they were able to send messages to him, but never directly dealt >> rose: that's almost a policy. >> exactly. we tend to trust our liaison agenci, our friends, to do some of this difficult human intelligence. it's never been the strong suit of the congressman we're good the technology and eaves -- of the cia. we're good at the technology and eavesdroing. >> rose: he goes to thejordaniam what? >> that he can lead them directly to the number two of al-qaeda. >> rose: who's now the numberon? >> number one. he began to show he was in the presence of this man, he'd become his doctor. at he's a diabetic, he has medical issues. he began to send information about him, information that the cia could corroborate because of their own knowledge of the man. >> rose: hwas actuallytreating i
>> exactly. the pretense was to get medicine for al-zawahiri to treat him for the diabetes. it was a perfectly plausible reason. >> rose: and al-qaeda began tot? >> they did. they also allowed him to take videotapes, part of the lure that he used, showing him meeting senior al-qaeda members, encrypting thi video, sendin it back to the handlers. >> rose: the plot was alreadyune had access to al-zawahiri? >> exactly. the bait becomes more and more attractive. >> rose: he goes back to thejor. >> electronically. talks to them through email. he says there's a push on both sides for a meeting, because nobody really knows what this guy has been up to. he sounds great, but they need to meet him, find out what he knows, what he can do for them. so there's an urgely, up to hangly and the white house to try to physically sit down with this man and perhaps set up a
trap for al-qaeda. >> rose: the president was bein? >> the president was briefed twice this was going to happen, and was told day before the meeting took place that it was going to happen. >> rose: so you had thecommunica and the jordannians and him. so what was the dance going on that led to him being admitted to their presence? >> the dance was that he didn't want particularly to go to a cia base. he was fighting against that. he wanted them to come to him. his idea, they could try to kidnap someone, or maybe have an ambush and kill cia officers. he didn't want to particularly give up his own life. >> right when the cia just said, no, you have to do it on our terms, come to our place, it's secure, you would not be harmed, won't be seen. finally he agreed to that. when he did, this is when the icide operation -- >> rose: who were hisaccomplice? >> a number of senior taliban officials working with him. also senior members of al-qaeda,
one a spiritual advisor to al-qaeda, very close associate to bin laden. >> rose: then comes the y thede. what happened on that day? >> it was an extraordinary operation, because from the cia's point of view the whole focus is on keeping this man safe. he's intent on killing people. they're intent on making sure nobody discovers or learns his secret identity. >> rose: why had they been abler survival instincts, all of their precaution? >> i think one reason is because the level of excitement was so great. >> rose: about al-zawahiri?abou. just a few months ago, when bin laden was potentially there to be killed or captured, it was a risky operation but everybody wanted to do it as quickly as possible. it was the same in this case. it was the closest anyone had been to this potentially important target in eight years. so a the way up to the white house people were excited, because finally we'll get a major blow against al-qaeda. >> rose: then the day comes.he . he gets a ride from pakistan
across the border with an afghan guard. he goes to the base itself. there are multiple layers as you can imagine of security and guards and aricans, you know, afghan guard and because he's so important, and because he's so trusted, he gets whisked back past every one those guard stations, without being searched, without being patted down. >> rose: not once?not once. even in the car. in a more typical situation, an informant leans over the front seat, and the person i the back seat the check him for wires at least. nobody knows what he's been up to. he's been in enemy territory. in this case, they didn't want him to be discovered, so they got him past, and the icing on the cake they baked a birthday cake for him, because it had been his birthday a few days before, and they wanted to make him feel welcome. >> rose: what happens?he arriveg crowd of people to meet him. not one or two operatives who
were going to question him, but an entire overnight ravage of people who were going to -- entourage of people who were going to see what he knew. there were 14 people waiting to meet him that day. >> rose: what they did represen? >> many soft most senior -qaeda specialts, including jennifer matthews, the base chie on al-qaeda's trail since before/11, one of the most knowledgeable al-qaeda officers that they had, and she was there that day to meet him along with a whole cast of others. >> rose: and what did he do?he . they try to welcome him, to let him out, but he inste slides across the seat to the other side, lets him out on the opposite side of the car. as soon as he getsut, he's walking with an am bling gait, and he bins to chant, god is grea the words in arabic. this is the moment that everyone realizes that something is horribly wrong.
>> rose: what was it like?how d? >> he has a bomb on his chest, not just your ordinary suicide bomb that you'd see in pakistan. it's military explosives and 15 pounds of metal, ball bearings, metal fragments, all concealed in a vest, andy has a detonator on his wrist that looks like a wristwatch. he finally hits that thing, and the devastation -- >> rose: a bright light thatsom. >> lifting cars off the ground, killings everybody that was within immediate eyesight. >> rose: and he was propelled -, and not much else was left of him. seven of the officers were immediately killed and two others die. >> rose: including jennifer?jen. another woman who had arrived in afghanistan a few weeks before. so the human toll was just -- was tragic by historical standards for the cia. >> rose: and the response in th? >> it was immediate. first of all, it was such a
family event for the cia. things like this don't happen. the officers who were involved had worked for the agency for many years. they were well known. and so there was a sense of resolve that kicked in the very next day with what a period of drone strikes unprecedented in the last few years, missile strike after missile strike, pulling strings to look for osama bin laden, which turned out to be fruitful. >> rose: that was darrenlabonte? >> a remarkable young man. he had been an army ranger, special forces officer, who was really terrific at that, and was hired to be a paramilitary officer of the cia. also very -- intelligence made him sort of a double major. he was a paramilitary and also a case officer. he was the case officer for our bomber. >> rose: he said we need to gos? >> he was one of the few that raised flags from vet beginning. he knew more about him than anybody else in the cia, and said there's something fishy about this, we nd to go slow.
he was as excited as everyone else about what he could potentially deliver, but he s worried up until the day he arrived that something would go amiss. >> rose: what was thejordanian'- >> he was the jordanian officer, the only onef the group who had actually met the bomber. he had concerns as well. >> rose: there were warningsign. i mean, people had suspicions. >> indeed. >> rose: not just beingcautioust hispecifically. >> and warnings from the jordanians as well who said, look, he's being sodemanding about the terms of the meeting, something is wrong here. he may be leading to you an ambush. that was the actual words fm the jordanians? >>ose: why dn't they listen?jus? >> obviously pressure from senior levels to make this happen, but in defense of the agency they also were -- they felt they had to meet him. and -- >> rose: what you normally sende agent to go? >> that typically happens for
informants. you'll send someone, a secret meeting, a street house, in the alley somewhere. this was such a special case that it required special circumstances. from the cia's point of view they felt they had to meet the guy. and leon panetta said later that someone was going to die th day. it probably should have been two or three, not seven or nine as ultimately happened. >> rose: who were killed beside? >> the bomber himself, and the jordanian and an afghan driver who had gone across to pakistan to bick him. >> rose: the book is called "the who infiltrated t cia." captioning spoored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org